Transitions in Early Childhood and Beyond

Dr. Katie Herron talks about transitions with Betty Lou Rowe, an educational consultant for the Indiana Resource Center for Autism (IRCA) and Indiana School Mental Health Initiative (ISMHI) at the Indiana Institute on Disability and Community, Indiana University, Bloomington.

Transcript

Welcome to the Early Childhood On-the-Go Podcast, where the Early Childhood Center team shares ideas and strategies for professionals and families.  Dream big, start early.  Hello, thank you for being with us. Today, we have Betty Lou Rowe here with us to talk about transition. Betty Lou is an educational consultant with the Indiana Resource Center for Autism (IRCA), and the Indiana School Mental Health Initiative (ISMHI) at the Indiana Institute on Disability and Community (IIDC), so she's right next door to us. She's going to talk to us about transition, particularly from elementary to middle school, and from middle school to high school. So, before we get into that, Betty Lou, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? Sure, thanks so much for having me on, Katie. Absolutely. I am by trade a special educator. That's what I went to school for, and I worked with secondary students with emotional disability, and then I transitioned myself into Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), and I've worked birth through adulthood, so the whole gamut which is pretty exciting. I see where it begins and kind of what comes out, outcomes and gives us a lot of information about if what we're doing is good for quality life, right? So, that was my background, and I have been a coordinator, so I've been in administrative roles and so forth when I moved out of the classroom. And I was in Michigan. That's where I spent the majority of my years and education was in Michigan. And when I moved to Indiana, I was with Indianapolis Public schools and then moved over to the Indiana and [not clear] community, working with the Center on Educational Lifelong Learning and the Indiana Resource Center for Autism. So, I moved from being a Buckeye. I'm a Buckeye by birth and I went to Bowling Green State University, which is where I got my bachelor’s degree, they have a huge education program there and so moving to Michigan was interesting, and as a Buckeye fan, but now I'm in Indiana. So, I'm a Midwest girl. Well, the beauty of this is that we’re The Early Childhood Center, and so we spent a lot of time talking about the first time that families do things, the first time that families enter into systems around disability, the first time that families enter into the school system in particular. And what I really like is bringing people in who have experience a little bit down the line so that families and early childhood professionals can think about what the reality is later so that they can plan in the moment. I think a lot of times in early childhood, more than any other place, we are in the moment because we have families just starting out. They're stressed, children are young, and they're focused on survival. But I think it's too easy to say, well, they're focused on survival, so we won't talk about any of this other stuff, you know? We need to, because I think it's really important to see the entire scope. You know, Katie, I went from being a high school teacher for kids with emotional instability to a preschool autism teacher. Oh, wow, that was huge jump, yeah, right? I was teaching math, science and careers in a secondary building in a high school during high school. And when I moved into autism, I moved to Michigan and was getting my masters in autism education and teaching at a district there. They had an opening at preschool, but I also have an undergraduate degree in deaf education. And so, I had done student teaching with younger kids and so forth, and the reason why I made that move was my passion, I’m very passionate in that communication, behavior. That drives so much success for people. And I'm like, that's why autism brought it together for me, I had passions, but thinking about starting with those younger kids. It was intimidating at first, right? Because now I'm working on different skills that had nothing to do with secondary, but it gave me a lens of what could be. And I'm not thinking about what I'm saying in my program, but like, what will it be in high school, but what I am asking is what skills for each level, do we need to make sure? Like, we're preparing in preschool, right? For this transition to elementary? And what do they need to have success, right? It is a marathon, it's not a sprint, but we have to start somewhere because those foundational skills mean a ton. Yeah, and also, I think it's easy for families of young children to think, well, this is my baby. So, and we're dealing with so many things that I don't need to worry about working on a dressing or working on some of those adaptive daily living skills because they're not thinking long-term necessarily at that point. But I was just reading an article and unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to cite it, but I was just reading an article about the impact of seeing daily skills, like an assessment of daily skills on teachers’ perceptions of where children should be placed. And so, knowing that working on those adaptive skills is not just about, oh, you know, it doesn't matter if I put on the kid's shoes, or he puts on his own shoes. It's about placement, and it's about teacher perception down the road and you know, there's a whole lot that rides on that.  And even putting things on, like dressing might, or putting my shoes on is part of the executive function, your problem solving. And so, if we're problem solving all the time for kiddos, we don't give them the opportunity to practice that, which is why we say, “Please don't practice putting on shoes if you have to be out the door in two minutes.” Right. Because that's not going to lead to anywhere fun. But it's because of the teaching of the different nuances of all of that. So, in the end, it's like, who cares if I put their shoes on? I care because of all the different components to putting on your shoes. And that just lays a foundation for when we need to do different things. I don't want to say bigger, because putting on your shoes for kids is big. So different skills that would lie in that same. Absolutely. And also, what are you telling that kiddo, not necessarily verbally, but just through those expectations about where you want them to be, because in a mainstream classroom, in a general ed classroom, the teacher doesn't have time to put on everybody's shoes. You have to think about where do I want my kiddo to be when they're in kindergarten, when they're in fifth grade, eighth grade, etc.  It’s learned helplessness. I never judge because I understand it's difficult, but that's part of what we do at the school, it's my job to meet you at the door to say, “I’m not carrying in your kiddo, I'm gonna walk with them and I'll sit here until they're ready, but you go on back to your car.”  We got this, right, because that's difficult for families that say, “Well, I'll just carry them in.”  Because that happens. No, that's okay. That's my job, my job is to start that movement in so they understand what the expectations are. That is my job to start setting that. And that's also modeling for families. So that's, I think, in any transition, when we're talking about Pre-K, and honestly, there's a first transition, right? Transition into systems, like transitioning from home or from the hospital, like, there's all of these things. So, there's lots of transitions for parents, but to me, no matter which level you're talking about in transition it’s about helping the families, modeling that for families, too, about what that is, that it's going to be okay. It's going be okay, it’s about letting go, and that's always a challenge. 100%. Well, I'm  kind of excited today that we're gonna talk about the transitions that sometimes don't get talked about, which is that elementary to middle school, and middle school to high school. Because I think when we come into the school system, we talk about that a lot because we're leaving early intervention, sometimes, if you had a kiddo in early intervention. and you're moving into the school system, and those are two very different systems with different goals and priorities. And so, it gets talked about a lot, and then also on the other end of things when we leave high school and we go into the system of being a young adult and either, you know, VOC rehab maybe, or just employment in college or whatever it looks like. That's again, a shift in systems. And those are big transitions. So I don't mean to minimize those, but we talk about them, and then these other transitions within the school system, I think sometimes get left behind and I have a 22-year-old, so I've gone through all of these transitions, and the transition that we had from elementary to middle, and from middle to high, were two of the hardest transitions because there wasn't a lot of prep, and we encountered significant barriers in both. So anyway, I'm kind of excited to focus on that. And what are your thoughts around, what are some of the challenges and barriers around those transitions? Sure. And I believe truly that transition to, especially to elementary to middle is very challenging for all students. And I would say from middle to high for different reasons, right? And so, when we think about individuals with more variability, and let me say this about middle school, because that was my first position was as a middle school teacher. And what I came to realize was that some of the most challenging aspects to be a middle schooler, right? During those years, we were at the shortest amount of time in the building. right? You're typically there, depending on if you're a junior high or a middle schooler. If you're a middle schooler, you’re in sixth, seventh, or eighth grade. If you're a junior high schooler then seventh or eighth grade. And I taught junior high schoolers that were seventh and eighth graders. But we had a lot of those physical changes happening, all of those chemical things are happening, and we had the shortest amount of time with that, right? But those years, there's lots of people say, “I don't understand middle schoolers, because they have one foot in elementary, and one foot in middle school.”  They are teens and they're  still trying to find themselves, right? So now we have some added layers if I am also living with variability and what does that mean? So, I think about building size. Now, that depends upon districts. So, it's not a blanket statement because there are some buildings that are K through 8 buildings, right? So, they actually spend elementary through middle school and then they go to high school. So, it kind of depends, but I think about it in my experience, that whole you're moving to way bigger buildings. elementary to middle, big building, bigger building, middle to high, even more. You have some classes that have a thousand kids in it, in your freshman classes. You know, that's a lot of kids, right? So, you think about building size, the number of people, the number of teachers that you might have or a number of staff members that you're oh, you have to go see your counselor. Who's the counselor? You have all of those pieces, right? They would be there. And that's exactly right, for families as well.  I remember, you know your elementaries, the teacher that your kid had, and you'd be able to reach out to them, but suddenly in middle school, they've got eight teachers and who do you go through first, you know? Now, a lot of times I think if you happen to have what we call, a teacher of record, they can help guide families a little bit more, because that can be their point person. It doesn’t mean they should answer all the questions, but that's your point person, how do I navigate if my kiddo potentially has seven or eight teachers, how do I do that? Or, when do I go to the counselor versus that, you know? And a lot of our kids their education is through an IEP.  You have a team, but who do I go to for what? Because that team looks different than when it was at the elementary school. So, yeah, it's like finding that point person, where do I start and help them, I think, guide me through that? I also think besides the size of the building and the number of people, is the hallways. I mean, hallway transition, you are no longer, I think we talked about it before, two on blue and hold the bubble in your mouth. Like that's not what's happening. And there's a lot of conversations that happen. Like the kids feel that I don't even know how to manage that, you know? There's lockers, like some kids might have experienced lockers, some elementary schools have lockers, but others don't or they weren't locked lockers, but this was where their stuff was stored. So now, you move into where you have to have a lock and how do I manage that? And, you know, we through planning, if I have difficulty with a lock, hey, we've got ways around that, but there has to be somebody there advocating to say it doesn't have to be one way, not everybody leaves that number, turn it, turn it to the right this, go past zero, do that's a lot. So, what other options are there? You know, because there should not be just one option. There's ways around those kinds of things, but that can be the cafeteria. You get to go make choices sometimes. How do you make the choice of your food?  I'm used to bringing my lunch, or it's what you get. I think elementary schools have some options now, but not like the a la carte options that could be at the middle school going to high school. Well, how do I manage that? What does that look like and so forth? So, I think that the other change is peers. If I was at my elementary school and I had peers that I had had for a number of years. I've gotten to know them, they know me, and now I go to a building where now the elementary, like, if you have more than one elementary, you're feeding into more feeding. That means there's more peers. And because there's more peers, people have more opportunity to make new friendships, the same thing in the high school, even bigger, which is awesome, but if creating relationships is a challenge for me, and now I might feel like my peers are starting to pull away because now they have more opportunity to experience other things. And it's not assumed that you're gonna all be friends in middle school. In elementary school, if you've been with the same kids for that long you just assume that, “Oh, that's my friend, I've known them since kindergarten,” and now it's a whole new ball game, you've got new kids. and I think a lot of families are very fearful of that time. Yeah. I look at it as I can't make someone be your friend. I can't make them invite them over after the football game, right? And not that the families are saying that, I'm gonna say finesse it a little bit differently. Now, if you have people like in your neighborhood, but there's a lot of kids that attend schools that aren't in their neighborhoods. So, they only knew the kids when they were in the building, right? Because then when they went home, those same peers were not in their neighborhood. And if I had siblings, I might have created some things for them or my family, friends or so forth. But sometimes families get overwhelmed and their social experiences aren’t broad. Their family becomes their focus, so now they lose that opportunity to be social, too. So, how do I navigate this world of the kids that are changing? My kids are changing too. My kids are no longer that six- year-old or 10-year-old, and they're changing as well, but how do I navigate that? And, you know, I think that sometimes the kids when they're at school, they have that ongoing support and families don't. So, we might say we got this, we got ideas around that because the families don't feel that, or know that, yes. I think the communication is a piece of it, for sure. So, you've described a lot of barriers, and I feel like as when I have my parent hat on, you're describing a lot of the things that I hear families say they're terrified of around middle school and high school. But you put a nice silver lining on it. There's also opportunity there.  We have to be more intentional because there are those opportunities that in the transition from elementary to middle, or middle to high, is I want to be as a staff member, you know, I'm the one facilitating this move, this transition. I want to be able to give information, but not overwhelming. I don't want to overwhelm families, but to be able to say, “Well, let's look at what are some interests that might be there.”  Like, what kinds of, here's what we have. How can we find opportunities for your child? And here's the other thing that schools are really good at. If they don't have a club, they're usually pretty open to creating them. The high school where my son went created a chess club because they knew he was interested in chess. and that was a very nice social thing for him for sure. So, it's amazing, like sometimes you look at the catalogues, I'm like, I don’t know what half these things mean, but yay, for you, right? That we can find that or create that opportunity there, and, you know, I wanted kids to go to the homecoming games, go to the homecoming parades, don't not take advantage of all the stuff that's there. Now, what we sometimes have to figure out is logistics. How's that all gonna work? Once again, as your team person, as your teacher of record or the counselor whomever is your point person, that's part of my intention right way to help smooth those waters. To be able to lead the way on what's available. And if we're not finding something, to help figure out the best way to make that, because the parents don't have the lens of the school. So, you need a school person who has the lens. And parents are usually gonna lean to the side of protection and not trying something. But my question is, I find that sometimes the social opportunities, there's a fine line between involving kids and turning it into what I call inspiration porn or making them a mascot or do you know what I mean? How do you walk that line of authentic engagement without it becoming something that smacks of pity? Sure, yeah. And I think that's a great question. And I think we have to be very mindful and what the purpose of the student is involvement is, so if I'm a student, for example, who loves basketball, and we know sports is highly, competitive, right? And that  I could try out and I might not make it, but I want to be involved. How can I be involved with that sport I love without it being that, you know, there's Betty Lou, who's, you know, didn't quite make it or didn't try out for whatever reason, whether it was physical or spiritual, whatever, how can I still be involved? And it be almost filling a need. And I will say about inspiration that it’s very much needed that having someone who can be there, that you know is cheering you on, as a kid can be amazing, even if I never say the words, but your presence is enough to say, you come to our practices every day, you're here to be with us. That is pretty cool. And I don't see that as mascot, but more like here's a great leader of what it is to be a teammate. And I may never say a word. That's to me, what the heart of being a team is. Now, if I'm toting that, like here comes the team and Betty Lou, then that makes me separate from the team. But if here comes Rock Hill High School's basketball team, and I'm part of that team, I'm part of that team. Does that make sense? It's definitely a fine line, but I see the distinction. But for others also, I think educating those around the student about what their purpose is, too. You know, why is Betty Lou here? Why does Betty Lou want to be here with you? And educating others? We need education about other people, and that's why, you know, things around inclusion is for everyone. I always felt that I was very privileged to have a sibling with a varying ability, because it taught me so much about how to be a teacher, how to be a person, how to be a friend, and how to like different personality traits. And I don't know that I would have done. I mean, I tell my brother I don't know if I would have chosen my path. I wouldn't be here if I didn't, right? And I'm very thankful for that. Not everyone has that opportunity to have that early learning. And I watched it all the time and kids aren't sure how do you manage someone who may not be talking to you or her needs are a little bit or a lot different. The learning opportunities to understand what it is to be with all people is huge. I agree, and I think the kids that have that in elementary from a young age are very lucky when they have us up here that has a different ability. When you get to middle and high, I think sometimes we get into adult mode and adult mode is, you pretend it's not there. Or you avoid it if you're uncomfortable. Because that as adults, I think that is what we do unless we've learned differently. And so, I think your point about thinking about how we build awareness amongst peers in a more direct way is really critical. So, my son is 22. I have a daughter who's 14.  And I noticed from a young age that her experience growing up with my son, I didn't think that it had a huge impact, but there was a concert we had at school and there was a child with autism that was in the concert and was struggling a little bit with his part. She just came up next to him, really subtly, whispered in his ear. He got started, she went back to where she was, the concert moved on. Nobody else had moved and I thought, oh, well, there you go. Then afterwards, it was fascinating to me how everyone went and said something to her, and that bothered me because what I wanted was for her to have done it and move on and it wasn't a thing. But it’s natural. I know, but that's a natural support. Like we don't, thank everyone for all this stuff, right? But it's a natural support because here's the thing. I wonder if it was a neurotypical individual who was struggling a little bit, and we gave it up like that and moved away. Would we give that same praise?  Or is it because, oh, it's absolutely, yes, that is. And we want it to be natural of that's how we just that's just how we do things, we help our friends, we help our, yes. No matter who they are.  100% and I think that was your point earlier about the team is like, if  you're all part of the same team, then you help each other and you're part of the team, and even if somebody needs something a little different, that's fine. I think what I see that bothers me is when somebody is othered enough where we have to then praise everybody for having helped their teammate, because that implies that teammate isn't actually a teammate. They're an other. And anyway, I mean, we're a little bit on a tangent, but no it's okay, but I do think at least that creating the peer relationships that we want them to be authentic. And I'm a believer in peer mentoring programs and some of the pushback originally, and I could understand it was are they earning credit, are they doing it, you know, all of those pieces? But I'm like parts, sometimes, yes, sometimes they're depending on the program, but= I needed to create some peers to do some natural  things. But they needed some education on that. Like, you'd have a couple who had experience. and it was like a no brainer. But those peers, like for us, as educators, when we're working with kids and going through social skills and all that kind of stuff, right? It took high school students to say would you just stop telling them to treat people like that, because we don't do that. Thank you. All right, I need to hear from you because we want our kids to be authentic students that appears as kids. I mean, when some of my students would do things that you're like the other people are like, oh, my gosh, that's just typical teenage thing. Yes, that's okay. Oh, my. I know you said the word you shouldn’t have.  Yeah, that was natural. Well, and I think that's also why it's such a confusing time because, you're like, is this the disability? Is this teenage years? Is this hormones? What is this? And, you know, and you're right. Sometimes you want to see the rebellion and you want to see because that's yeah, that's 100%. I have to say we took students to a camp and we had neurotypical peers too, and we would go to a camp for about three days. Overnight, we were doing zip lining, so they had this zip line. and a student that I was his teachers for a number years and was very close to his family. I'm like, these zip lining into the woods, right? And all you hear is like gee… whole thing it goes down through and all echoing and I was chuckling right? And so, when he came down off, he says, Betty Lou, so he said this statement and I went, he is all right, you know? That seems contextually appropriate. You were scared, but he is in his head, I'm sure he's thinking, okay, this is a school, you know, school out. But he was just such a natural and for me, those were some of the best times I had with students, and I was  consulting at times, I wasn't anyone's classroom teacher, but that was where you saw natural interactions, to be honest. We're all around the fire, we're singing songs, we're making smores. You're going horseback riding. So, all those things that you would just naturally do, even with the adults, it's like we had a group of friends, and we had neurotypical peers, we had our kids with varying abilities, we had the adults, but we're all just the same. You know, not wanting to do unlike, I'm proud of you, because I'm not doing the high. Good for you, but I'm down here on the ground. You know what I mean, so natural that  I wish I could have caught that in a bottle. and could show people that is the main when we do let down some of honestly, like, some of the stuff, like we have to do to get there, this is so beautiful. And I think with families, that's what we're trying to also support that, that you're gonna get with social interaction. You're gonna get the good, the bad and the ugly. Because that's what having kids is all about too, we get the good, the bad and the ugly. And I don't want it to be so robotic when you think about you have to do this for social interactions or the peers and so forth. And I'll tell you that some of our greatest peer mentors is not the A student, not your student is not involved in everything. but they wanted to support, they wanted to figure out how to support other people. And those are some of our best, and then school for them became a reason to be there, was that they could make sure they were there to be that person here, for their peer. And that's what I mean, and that is the most beautiful thing that happened with your peer relationships is that if you truly become friends, and I won't say that it is easy to maintain that after school, because honestly, I don't have the same friends I had in high school, right? And to me, those years are about building the skills to create those that as you get older, then you're gonna find that you have and you find them differently. You, like, they find keeping the same friends. It's about having the skills to show your relationships. That's right. So I think  when we talk about all of those, there's a lot of opportunity for that, but I do believe it has to be intent, we need to talk about that intentionally in that transition process, for how can I get involved with my school? And I always say, go to the games, go to the band concerts. Go to things to be part of the school because I think there's a lot of times, and unless you have other kids that are in the school, or you've had them and you have a connection. Sometimes family can feel displaced. I think that's true, and families haven't always had the best experiences at schools either. So, then you add, layer that in and it can be extra hard. But it’s great advice how just really think about that. Yeah. So, anything we haven't hit on in terms of what could you do in planning for that transition? So, I would look at when we're talking about going from elementary to middle, middle to high.  How could we support some of that? Outside of just conversation, which would be multiple visits. And I would make sure that kids were there experiencing the hallway and the cafeteria. So, visits during the school year not just over summer break. I would start there, and a lot of times eighth graders will do a visit, and I'm sorry, fifth graders would do a visit, eighth graders will do a visit. That typically happens. That's fine. That's not enough, because I may need a more targeted visit. I'm not sure that we ever had a visit when everybody was in the hallways, including the kids visiting. And I will say that the hallways were the biggest sensory barrier for my son.  And I'm gonna prep that because the other thing I don't want to do is make your first experience there terrifying.  The other thing that you can do is also do a video. You could record a hallway passing, once again, if you're doing it with kids, you know, get rid of their faces or if everything is  just an audio depending on what you're trying to do exactly. The bells, what do the bells sound like, those kinds of things.  Just take some of those recordings, audio or visual. That's a great idea to do some of that, I would think about in the summer once you've got the schedule, and even if your schedule, maybe that the majority of your time is in a space, like a certain program. Still go, still explore the school, because you're going to go to other spaces, like, where will my best friend pick me up, or where will the car be? You know, where I do have PE, how would I get there from this classroom to this classroom? Where is my locker? I learn to practice my locker. So, having that stuff in the         summer when it's a little less of that, but you could walk the building, so you could get a feel for where the spaces are that you would experience that. You've never been to the football field, you know, been to the basketball court, and go there, so you can feel that those are the spaces, but this is your school, too, and you want to make sure that they feel that. And any other typical stuff, open houses, club days, anything that they're offering, take advantage of that and go. Even if you're not sure it's going to be as families like, go, and that's the only way you're going to know if things are feeling good for you is to actually experience it, and get your child there. So, a lot of this is on families, but I mean, I'm hearing from the school side of things that communicating about those things. And maybe even at the beginning, giving some special invitations for those families who might be a little disenfranchised or might not automatically go, teachers knowing their families and their students well enough to know students and maybe a second invitation or, yeah, I'm going to be there at this time or something like that. Same thing with if we knew who your teachers were, and they were open to that, I might if I'm your teacher of record or point person, say, Hey, I'd like to do a short video and introduce the teachers to my students. So, then they could have that before they got there saying, Hi, you know, I'm Miss Peterson, I'm teaching PE. I can't wait to have you in my class. And then they could see that over the summer or closer to school start and just that way they have this idea of who the people are. I mean, minimally, if we can give it in a visual, but I like the idea of doing a recording and then they could hear their voice and see who they are. But also tapping into if you have siblings who are a part of that school, or family friends who have kids that are tapping into them too, to go with you, you know, is a great way to have a tour from another kid instead of from an adult, right? Because there's that perspective thing. Adults are not going to show you the same thing that kids are in the same way. Like, stay away from the grilled cheese. Like don't go in that bathroom, you know? I mean, yes, like all those things and that's why I said, well, I learned so much from our peers and our peer mentor program because I needed to know that speech path and who worked together on this program. We need to know what we should be saying, having kids say and do to the to the best we can, so that they are more, it's about acceptance, right? I don't want to be tolerated. I just don't want your awareness. I want your acceptance. And I'm only going to do that if I really am talking the language that everyone else is. Well, the other thing that I struggled with is thinking about how we utilize Aids, or assistance or parents. Because I think that from elementary, having adults around is kind of fun, you like having the extra adult and, “Oh, we'll talk to so and so.” So, when you get to middle and high, it really shifts the interaction when you have an adult present all the time. And so those kids that need that, thinking about how you position that person and when they need to be right by the child’s side versus when they need to be across the room or in the hallway. “Do they need to be walking next to the child in the hallway, or can they be feet behind trailing along, talking to another adult? I think that's really important. I agree and I do a lot of thinking about your role, and I don't know that everyone's always clear about what that should be. What does that look like if I'm, what's my role as a para-professional with the students that I'm with, whether it's through the classroom, whether it's that I needed additional adult assistance, why is that? And what should that look like? And because one of the things from an educational standpoint, people aren't sustainable, systems are. So, if I can have a system in place, which is maybe I'm going to check in with someone, but I don't need you to walk me there. And it doesn't necessarily need to be the same person, right? I taught Ben from kindergarten on that you ask for help from the person closest to you, and that could be a child, that could be another kindergartner. If you drop your pencil, you don't need the Aid to pick up that pencil. And that's what they teach. So, what is in a right, in a typical classroom, they try to teach problem solving, ask the person, ask a peer first before you raise your hand for teacher assistance, right? Because that is fostering problem solving, and that you're not always gonna have that person right there. And what we know about transition to adulthood is the people are sustainable.  A lot of the stuff that were people directed are gone for that student and for you. Or if you have to have a direct service professional, they're likely to change every six weeks because of the way that system works, knowing how to work with lots of people. Yeah, absolutely. I know we need to wrap up, but is there anything else that you would want to leave families with? Particularly younger families? I'm hearing - ask a lot of questions, plan in elementary for increased independence in middle and high so that you can be psychologically and physically prepared for. I would say this a lot of times, I'm going to be honest. My student, the families I worked with were more anxious about the change than the kids were, because of the unknown. Yup. But here's what I saw in a lot of kids when they were in secondary. It felt darn good, because in elementary, the day seems like it will never end because you don't have a lot of bell systems in elementary. So, if I had math at 10 o'clock and we didn't get finished, my teacher is putting it in at 1:00, and I'm thinking, what? I'm sorry, math is over. Why are we revisiting math? It's not supposed to be math time. In secondary, when math is over, math is over, unless you have a second math class, like the bell system, there's a beginning and end. It's more predictable. And so, I think that that gives some kids that “Oh, okay,” now I'm going to tell you block scheduling throws that off a little bit, but they manage that. Ultimately, it's going to be okay. And if we have a positive attitude about it as family members and as staff, that is all exciting. It should be exciting that we're making this change, but we like comfort.   We like to be comfortable, and I've had the same teacher for five years, you get all of that, and that also can bleed onto our kids, because we felt so comfortable and then we get kind of stuck. Everybody gets stuck and anxious. Think about it as, yes, anxiety can also be positive. Like, stress is so positive. So yeah, you're gonna be stressed, but be excited that this is happening for your kiddo, and that you shift your mindset to what is? The exciting stuff that is waiting for your kid when they get to secondary is amazing. So, grab it. I think we have to end on that, because that's perfect. We keep saying when we talk to families of young kids that if you have high expectations, we see high outcomes. And so that mindset we’re going to drop that and leave that there, and that's a mic drop. Thank you very much for being here and sharing. I think it's so important and I really enjoy talking with you. Awesome. I can talk about kids all day and you too, so I thank you so much for listening. Thank you. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Early Childhood On-the-Go podcast from the Early Childhood Center team at Indiana University. Learn more at IIDC.Indiana.edu/ECC/